Curse

MoonlitNightmare · Jan 18, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

my other thread was gunned down due to it having "multiple ideas" in it, so i'm making a second attempt to post a segment of my prior post. there are several ideas in this post, however they're interconnected and lean on eachother.

so ... hopefully this thread wont get closed.

Specialization - with the addition of the selectable secondary profession in Nightfall GuildWars has become a very versatile game for those who wish it to be. You don’t need to remake a new ranger just to try out different secondary professions. However, at the same time it’s inherently promoting players to play outside of their character mold. Perhaps they’re doing it to fit “the perfect build” for a run on which they wish to be apart. Whatever their reasons I think a little tweaking in the opposite direction would be well received. Let players select one profession to be that character’s “specialty,” in doing so they get a +1 attribute to one skill line of that secondary profession.

Hybrid armor - going hand in hand with the specialization of a secondary profession I think there should be Hybrid Armor as well. By this I don’t mean a deviation from the formal stats established for that class, but rather a cosmetic one. A warrior with a specialization of an assassins should have a slightly different look to their armor than a warrior who’s specialized as a monk. The warrior/assassin should have more leather, perhaps more chain and padding and be generally more flexible; while the warrior/monk would be covered in runes, or perhaps they don’t wear helms, opting for the monk tattoos. A necromancer who’s specialized as an elementalist might have skulls with flames, while a necromancer who’s a mesmer might have skulls turned upsidedown. I think these sets of hybrid armor should be the endgame armor, and offered after you beat the primary campaign; which is also when I think one should pick their specialization. By that point in the game you should know what you prefer, and you should be able to display your preference to other players in your own distinctive way. if the +1 class specialization was tied to obtaining this armor ( perhaps the boots could have the secondary +1 in the same way the helm has the primary +1 ) i think it would be a worthy addition to the teirs of armor available to the player.

God-skills - I would really like to see another layer of skill added ontop of the elite skills that are already in place. I think a good way to tie these skills in would be through a combination of class combination ( working with the class specialization, you would need to have both the primary and secondary required for the skill in order to acquire and use it ) as well as a pre-requisite of the favor of a specific god. This favor could be gained either through points ( like sunspear points ) or through faction ( like baltazar faction ). Once you’ve gained the appropriate status, and have the right skill in place, you could embark on a quest given by the avatar of that god which culminated in the gaining of a god-skill. I don’t think you should be able to use both a god-skill and an elite at the same time, but rather in this respect they should be treated the same as an elite skill. I think the length of time and dedication to a class combination would make for an interesting roleplay element, and give players who have beaten the campaign something to do other than accumulate greens. I don’t think this type of skill should be unlockable across the account, nor available to heroes or useable by pvp players, either. Once a player has obtained a god-skill from one god they shouldn’t be able to get other god-skills from other gods. To me a skill like this should be on par with the pvp emotes signifying rank in terms of time and dedication to playing in the pve sphere.

thankyou for reading.

Vinraith · Jan 18, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

with the addition of the selectable secondary profession in Nightfall

That's been in the game since day 1 of Prophecies. To be honest, while the idea is interesting, that ship pretty much sailed 2 years ago. The game's constructed around near total character liquidity aside from primary profession and I doubt a change in that capacity would be well received by the community or the devs.

MoonlitNightmare · Jan 18, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

i'm not saying that there should be a move away from that.

all of the ideas i have proposed there are in addition to that, not instead of.

i think one should be able to specialize in one class combo, and have benefits for playing with it. i do not think that should prevent them from using other class combos, however.

if a w/a wants to specialize in that and then get the hybrid armor, he can wear it while he's playing a w/a. that doesn't mean he can't switch to a w/mo, although he couldn't wear his specialized w/a armor then.

Antheus · Jan 19, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Locking yourself into a single profession combo means you're refusing to play the game.

There's already enough complaints about cookie cutter builds, add that, and it becomes a nightmare.

A "We need a MM"
B "No, I'm blood specialized"
A "We still need a MM"
B "Nope, can't change"

See the problem? I find myself changing secondary often. On some classes regularly. Since NF, changing secondary prior to entering the mission became the norm. So why take that away and gimp yourself?

For a god skill? That one cannot exist for simple balancing reasons.

MoonlitNightmare · Jan 19, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

not to be rude ...

but, antheus, did you not read all i said?

i understand both of your complaints, however one of them was addressed in the post immediately above.

and your example of "we need a mm" is exactly the kind of thing that i'm both attempting to get away from, and attempting to promote.

let me explain ... i hope you'll read it.

i want to get away from cookie cutter builds because it promotes people going onto guildwiki and finding the perfect R/Mo build for tombs, and groups only accepting *that* build, with no regard for if the player who has that build loaded even knows how that build *works*.

instead i would rather promote the concept of being able to identify players who have experience. this is something already in guildwars with the pvp emotes ... and while some claim it causes discrimination, nobody can deny that it does have the benefit of knowing: "do you have experience."

as for your kneejerk reaction to the skill ... again, please read what's said. nowhere do i say "give me a skill a god has" for sake of making me "a god" or anything else that would make the game unbalanced. i refered to them as "god-skills" because i wanted to instill the roleplay element of attaining them from a god by way of a quest in which your allegence to that god is proclaimed.

BahamutKaiser · Jan 19, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I don't think "God Skills" are neccessary. It is fun to play as something radically interesting, and use super cool moves. But the real issue is that there are some normal skills which are too crappy to enjoy, and having even better skills will not remedy that situation.

On another note, there already are "God Skills", I mean how much more god can you get than taking the form of a god which has multiple combat advantages for a period of time. There are already alot of powerful skills in classes like Elementist which totally suck because of outragious recast times and unbalanced costs, I don't really see how "God Skills" are going to be any kind of improvement, they still need to be balanced. And putting some uber super skill at the end of an unusually tasking amount of Grind is precisely what GW doesn't need. Many elite skills are already obscured in difficult regions of the game, making uber skills at the end of some obsurdly long task is exactly what GW isn't about.

There are ways to introduce unique, original and facinating additions to GW without breaking the ethical boundries of the game. And I really do mean Ethical, because games like WoW, no matter how enjoyable they are, involve and distribute unhealthy lifestyles and social corruption.

Something facinating and enjoyable does not need to be bricked up behind a mountain of achievements and endless, monotinous grind. Players should not be pitted against a mountain of unending tasks to achieve a level of unreasonable success before they can compeate on a balanced playing field. Uber, "God", and otherwise known as broken moves are not neccessary or even improvements to the game. Character developement can be fun, but it shouldn't prevent players from enjoying and compeating in the game. Cut out the fat and enjoy the real content.

MoonlitNightmare · Jan 19, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

to be perfectly honest i don't see the difference between asking a player to perform a long quest ( if you wish to brand a quest as a grind, so be it; that's your perogative ) and having a player obtain 240 uncommon drop items from a location which you can't access at will in order to obtain a suit of armor ... and i don't see any "ethical" implications in the crafting of obsidian armor.

with that said, i find the foundation of your argument flawed. i am thankful that you appear to be able to form a complete thought and have read what i've said, but on the otherhand: branding something that's difficult as "unethical" seems a bit far afield.

is getting the pheonix emote "unethical" ?

as for "cutting out the fat" ... i think too much of the fat has been cut out of guildwars to begin with. for all that makes guildwars a fantastic game, there are things that can be done better. things that can be done to push the boundries of what they have done in the pve sphere.

to claim that ramping up the difficulty prohibits people from playing on a "level playing field" is just nonsensical. guildwars would remain a game of skill, and if you're coming into the mission with your build and you play it well? then how is your value any less because you have not completed something that another player has.

Skyy High · Jan 19, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Moonlit, neither a phoenix emote nor obsidian armor will affect a player's ability to play the game. Being unable to get a certain skill unless you go through a ridiculously long god quest would. It's that simple. Why do you think people are so up in arms about Razah's acquisition, but no one really complains that torment weapons are even harder to get? Simple; Razah is something that could give one player an advantage over another, while a different weapon skin is just for show. There should not ever be a high level nigh-unattainable reward that separates the elite players from everyone else in anything but looks. Period.

MoonlitNightmare · Jan 19, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

and that response is far more solid, in my opinion, than proclaiming something "unethical."

i thank you for your opinion and feedback, even if i do not agree with you.

i personally don't see the harm in having certaint select few things that are hard to attain in the game: be it a hero or a skill. as was posted above, some elite skills are already in hard to reach locations, and that doesn't bother me in the slightest. i saw getting my skills from nightmare of jahai as a challange, not a pain.

in the end there are only so many heroes a player can use at a single time, and only one elite skill a player can use at a single time; and how effectively they are employed is completely up to the player.

mega_jamie · Jan 19, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

IMO we don't need this, its just another "gimme my Paladin" thread, and 'specialising' adding +attr to that specific class will just cause, elitism, yeah you can be any secondary, but your specialised one will be better attr wise, and people will expect you to speciaise for a specific one depending on your primary.

I'm always for extra armour designs however, it would be nice to see warrior armour with assassin influences, maybe these armours being available depending on which secondary you picked first (while not providing a bonus to being that secondary) would be ok.

Dougal Kronik · Jan 19, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I posted this in the thread Elite Classes

Quote:

Fleshing out the idea a bit more.

The character, once the native campaign has been completed with Protector Title earned can access the trials to attain the Elite status within the Primary profession.

You access the trial by visiting the respective god in Temple of Ages/Zinku Corridor/Chantry of Secrets. Once there, you kneel before the statue of your god, regardless of Favor, and the god will present you with choices for each of you primary attributes. You select one of them, pay 1,000 gold and are teleported, alone, to an explorable zone at the location of you god’s resurrection shrine.

The choice of attribute line resets you attribute distribution, and your skill bar is set with Elite trial skills. These skills should be a mixture of standard and unique skills like when you ride the Junundu. This way each character has the same stats and skills that attempt the Elite status.

Once in the zone, you must complete the quest that is given to you, and at the end there is a keyless chest, and a Weapon smith. The keyless chest will drop an Elite Totem and Elite Armor fragment. You trade the Totem at the Weapon smith for your weapon that is personalized, with your character’s name in the title, and customized. When you return to the god’s statue in ToA/Zinku/Chantry and kneel before the god, you have the selection to upgrade your armor skin to Elite like that of Hero Armor in Nightfall.

You may reenter and do the Elite Trial for your other attributes, but you can complete each only once. You may attempt as many times as you like for 1 platinum each attempt.

Example:

Dougal Kronik, a Ranger, is a Protector of Tyria. He enters Temple of Ages and kneels before Statue of Melandru. He talks to Melandru’s Avatar, who gives him the following choices:

Trial of Expertise
Trial of Beast Mastery
Trial of Marksmanship
Trial of Wilderness Survival

Dougal selects trial of Beast Mastery, pays 1 Platinum, and is transported to Twin Serpent Lakes at the Resurrection Shrine of Melandru. Dougal’s attributes have been rearranged for Beast mastery, and his skills have been replaced with Charm Animal, Comfort Animal, Troll’s Unguent, Predatory Pounce, Call of Protection, Call of Haste, special Trial skill, special Trial skill 2.

Dougal does what he does best and successfully completes the Trial. At the end he opens the chest and gets his totem, and armor piece. He speaks with the Weapon smith and trades his Totem for a Sundering Quarterstaff of Beast mastery.

Blunt Damage: 11-22 (Req. 9 Beast Mastery)
Damage +15% (While Health over 50%)
Armor Penetration +20% (Chance: 20%)
Beast Mastery +1 (20% Chance while using skills)

He then returns to Temple of Ages, speaks with Avatar of Melandru again, who offers him the following choices:

Trial of Expertise
Trial of Marksmanship
Trial of Wilderness Survival
Upgrade Armor to Elite Beast Mastery

He then has the profession Beast master as his primary. Which he can change to any of the completed Elite Trial profession. He can show BM/Mo or R/Mo for example.

This has no in game bonuses or causes any imbalance, it is simply cosmetic, to show some Class Specialization, or Elite Class status.

MoonlitNightmare · Jan 20, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

i see the similarities, dougal, although i do think that changing the name of a class would both cause confusion and only promote elitism to a degree which wouldn't be beneficial.

i would like to see some specialization so that people can show that they have familiarity with their chosen class combination, and have access to a new armor look and a new elite specifically geared towards that combination. altering their class name is taking it a step beyond that. unless someone is wearing their hybrid suit of armor, i don't see why there should be an outwardly display to that fact.

as for pressure to be a specific secondary, jamie, we already have that ... it's painfully evident when anywhere that people believe they need the "perfect" set of skills available to the group in order to complete the mission/farming/quest. lemmings will always be lemmings, that's no reason why those who wish to go out and create a character with their own specific role and individualism in mind should be prevented from doing so. and if the individualists do prehaps with the right rewards they will continue to play what they then know best ... and the entire pve experience will be better off for it.

Dougal Kronik · Jan 20, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Good point, well the original thread was for Elite Classes, so the entire concept revolved around the profession name change.

But, I agree, the profession name doesn't have to change. Your characcter could change to the Elite skin to show off his status, which is more subtle.